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Offline Lost Shuttle 2

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2013, 01:41:37 am »
I have been giving this some though and yes the original are still around but how many younger people take the time to check them out and see why some of us STILL like them over the bells and whistles the new versions have…
How would you like it if someone decided they could do Remington’s bronzes better or the Tiffney’s lamps. Mona Lisa or the The Sistine Chappel  Vincent Van Gogh’s "Le Pont de Trinquetaille" or Vase with Fifteen Sunflowers
How many times has some one decided they can redo Marilyn Monroe to find the original was better by far, there is no way to redo Marilyn. Or Ms. Elizabeth Taylor…Or Ms. Barbara Stanwick. Once you have seen the original everyone else is a mere copy.
A reboot/make/whatever can not show the time, effort ,pain a person went through to get it just right, todays actors have never gone through that sort of work because it is so simple now you goof up just do it again, do they think about how much film is going to be wasted because they messed up. oh wait if done with CGI what film a computer will see it is done right, heck in some movies a real actor dose not have to even be there. Just let a computer do the job.
Its to bad so many kids will never know the joy of watching something that took time to make without 15 second sound bytes or bells and whistles.  To wait for the ending that took longer then a 140 character text.
To enjoy a movie/show. whatever you have to really be watching it not glancing and catching bits and pieces.
And no I do not want my black and whites redone in color I enjoy seeing how shadows were used to show something in a person’s eyes or a car passing.I want to see the movie the way the director saw it not someone today who just has to change it cos he can.
Maybe you should listen to what Jeri Ryan says at the end of the last show of Voyager on the 7th disc, she explain what I feel about trek very nicely She and Kate Mulgrew.


Offline eagle219406

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2013, 04:09:34 pm »
I know a lot of people are saying how when reboots are done, it disrespects the person who made the original.  Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't.  Unlike many fans out there, I won't even pretend to know how the original maker would have felt.  But whether it disrespects them or not, I'm sure in most cases, it wasn't the remake's intention to disrespect the original.  In some cases they are maybe trying to show what they feel the original was supposed to show but was limited to the technology of the time.  If the remakes had been the original, would people have hated them so much?  There was a scene in the movie, "Iron Man 2," where Tony saw a message left to him by his father.  It spoke of a vision his father had for a new type of element, but the technology of the time prevented him from making it a reality.  He left the message for Tony hoping that by his time, it would be possible.  It was, and it saved Tony's life.  Now remakes obviously won't save anybody's life, but the concept is that same. 

Offline qoSagh

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2013, 08:49:53 am »
Sometimes I can see that a reboot is just an updating with new technology, but other it is something different entirely.

Look at Enterprise, they went to great pains to say that it fit in with the continuity of all the previous Trek, but had a ship that looked more advanced than TNG. We know from Relics that it is possible to recreate the look of the 1960's. Then you look at JJ Trek, where there was no indication that it had anything to do with existing continuity but changed many time honored traditions among the fans.

Now there are some which I don't think rise to the level of intentional trashing of the original but end up doing so through ignorance. Look at TAS , while now we see that there were some good stories and some interesting technology as well as cooler aliens, it was intended as a kids show. Was this because the producers ultimately saw Star Trek as something childish? Did they think they were continuing what started before? It was quite common to do animated versions of prime time shows for kids, remember Emergency +4, The Brady Kids or Jeanie? All changed the original in some way, many in ways that made it completely inconsistent with the original.

Then there are the live action sequels that do the same thing. Remember Galactica 1980? I personally like it, but after getting the DVD's I realize that the stories were over simplified for children. Then again, I was 10 when it came out. What I don't like was following (or possibly creating) the 1980-'s staple of characters riding around on some sort of cool vehicle to solve the guest star of the week's problems. I know to a certain extent that is what all of Trek and for that matter Galactica was about, but at least in space the locals are usually very different from each other.

I wrote earlier in this film about making dramas into a comedy, and really can anyone argue that the Land of the Lost movie was a loving tribute to the series or that someone thought the original was always intended as a comedy? Even if you could say that about Land of the Lost can you say the same about Starsky & Hutch? What if someone remade Terminator as a lavish musical, with a chorus of skynet babes? Would we be thinking how awesome it was that they realized what the original could have been?

Offline Mirror

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2013, 03:29:24 pm »
A reboot is like taking a group of young people, make them sing like ABBA but with techno music, call them ABBA Teens (A–Teens), and pretend that they are their heirs. And now, who thinks that the A–Teens where better than ABBA? And which ones are still alive in our memories? Reboots are the same.

Another exemple about music would be Elvis Presley. Why do you think James Cawley is still the best Elvis impersonator after... how many years? Because he is like having the real one.

My opinion is that, like those exemples, JJ Trek is in fashion but will be forgotten, and Phase II will be forever remembered.

Offline Lost Shuttle 2

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2013, 12:25:10 am »
Quote
In some cases they are maybe trying to show what they feel the original was supposed to show but was limited to the technology of the time.  If the remakes had been the original, would people have hated them so much? 


That's the thing  what they feel the oringinal would be / look  like, not what it was...the fact is there was not the tech back then to do it the way they could have...thats what makes so many what they are.. people used what they had not some CGI program or other modern day tech. How much of Treks gagets were stuff thrown away, no hand book on how things should be, look, or how to use.

Lets put this another way do you have a favortie cookie recipe from your mom or grandmother, one that you could pick out of a room full of same type cookie just by the feel, smell or taste. How would you like it if someone came along and said Oh if we do this or that it will taste better and you are suppose to go long even though you know it dose not taste like the one you grew up on.

No one should have the right to redo a show any show just because now we have all kinds of bells and whisles to do what ever, if they had been  back then it would have been used,but there wasn't and I think for directors, set crews,  whoever  to do what  they did to make a show should be repected enough to say, They did a good job not having what we have instead of saying Ohh we can make it better.And is it better just because it has more explosions or special effects?

If the remake had been the original we would not be having this disscusion.

I still say if you can make it better  then make your own world and do it don't try to ride someone elses coattails and if it dose not work blame fans cos they didn't  like it. 

There is enough space out there to come up with a new idea and go for it.

And yes I think part of why Phase 2 works is it stays with what Mr. Roddenberry had in mind. if not then it would not have lasted as long as it has.



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Offline eagle219406

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2013, 07:49:35 am »
Then explain this.  WHY IS IT, ON THOSE RARE TIMES SOMEBODY DOES DO SOMETHING NEW, YOU STILL BASH IT?

Offline Lost Shuttle 2

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2013, 02:54:50 am »
If you are speaking to me may I ask why you felt the need to YELL at me. I did not yell in my post.
I was only stating my opinion ,I do not see how anyone can think they may know what anyone would have done had they the means to do it, You may think they would have done it that way, or they could have also done it the way they did anyways, this is like the classmate who called me to see which would be more fun a dinner date with him or  going bowling…I was to answer for the girl he met 5 months before, How am I supposed to  know what she might like to do… I did not know her and only met her for 5 minutes. I have known my best friend from school since 2nd grade and would not think to speak for her.
So the idea that anyone today could possibly think they would know what a director would have done 40 plus years ago is improbable. When all is said and done it is your idea not theirs.
As for the NEW bit you mentioned just what in the last few years has been new in or for  movies. And know the last movie I saw was Rise of Planet of the Apes ,which was very hard to watch the parts with Mr. Lithgow, since it had not been so long before I lost my mother to dementia had I known about that I would have either watched a different movie, windowed shopped or sat in the car and waited for the ones I went with, I was her care giver 24/7.
The only other space type movie on in recent years has been Cowboys and Aliens, that I can remember. So do in lighten me on the new you speak of?

Offline eagle219406

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2013, 12:02:11 pm »
You want to talk scenarios, how's this for one?  Say you were an artist, and you were working on a painting that you planned to put on display.  You had a picture in your head of what the painting should look like, but you didn't have the material needed to make that vision come out.  You worked with what you had, but when the painting was finished, you weren't happy with it at all.  Being the artist that you are however, you put it on display anyway, and SURPRISE, they loved it. 

For many years after that, the public admired that painting, but you couldn't bear to even look at it.  Then one day through a stroke of luck, you manage to procure the material you needed but didn't have before, and you now have a chance to go back, and redo that painting the way YOU originally envisioned it.  Could you honestly tell me that you'd pass that up?

Offline Lost Shuttle 2

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2013, 03:14:18 pm »
You have changed the scenario now  you are speaking of the artist redoing his own work which is far differant then someone else seeing it and years later and going  Oh this is what they wanted to do so I will do it for them.

One of my grandfathers was a painter he has paintings in a few muesums in the area,He was called the male Grandma Moses in a well read newspaper here. He redid his own works many times. sometimes with such small changes you had to really look to find them.

But it as I said it was his works, he was not seeing what someone did years before and going Oh this is what it was meant to be.

For someone to see in this case a painting and go this should have been done or that should have been used and this something else and do it thier way then it is not the oringial artist  work any more it is now the person who redid it work, or in other words a copy of. With possibly just enough of the oringinal to say it is familar but not the painting you remember.
And some times change does not make something better it just makes it differant.

Now as to what this topic was about reboots, an artist (the director) knows when they do a movie what they have to use, they work with what they have, because even 40,50, 100 years ago there was no way for them to know what would come along  down the road.But if they wanted to rodo thier own work it would be differant,Not that I can say it would make it better just again differant.but it would be them redoing not someone who thinks this is what should have been done. Most movies today are not being done by the oringial artist but by others.

In your own words
Quote
and redo that painting the way YOU originally envisioned it. 

Offline NoBloodyABCorD

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2013, 03:52:08 pm »
You want to talk scenarios, how's this for one?  Say you were an artist, and you were working on a painting that you planned to put on display.  You had a picture in your head of what the painting should look like, but you didn't have the material needed to make that vision come out.  You worked with what you had, but when the painting was finished, you weren't happy with it at all.  Being the artist that you are however, you put it on display anyway, and SURPRISE, they loved it. 

For many years after that, the public admired that painting, but you couldn't bear to even look at it.  Then one day through a stroke of luck, you manage to procure the material you needed but didn't have before, and you now have a chance to go back, and redo that painting the way YOU originally envisioned it.  Could you honestly tell me that you'd pass that up?


If using an expanded palette would add new elements that would **disrupt the composition**, you LEAVE IT ALONE.  If you change the whole composition (when the original was very good, despite a limited palette), you are making a whole new work, and may very likely fail.   

Art is inherently illusion, so "tricks" used to make up for a limited palette may well be the very reason the original worked at all, and a new palette may actually result in a flatter emotional impact.  Zeal arising from a new box of crayons does not inherently make for a masterwork.

I agree w/the OP that production teams looking to reboot are frequently just taking the "easy way out".  JJ admitted no love or knowledge of Trek; his was a purely business decision: one that many find disagreeable.  Spider Man 3 was mangled by political wrangling, from what I read (Rami had other plans for it), thus the reboot.  Batman will not fit into Justice League, as presented by Nolan, and Nolan's team is done w/it anyway.

Reboots are fine if handled right.  Few are.   


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Offline HalOfBorg

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2013, 09:38:52 am »
How about if you gain more skills?

I went back and re-did my first AMV after I learned more, and tweaked a couple of my comedies to improve them.
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Offline qoSagh

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Re: Reboots
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2013, 12:01:38 pm »
Well since it is obvious that the Mona Lisa was always intended to be in 3D, with more explosions, I think I can see where this art angle is going. Of course then we have to do all the other paintings that will serve as the prequels to the Mona Lisa and feature other models entirely.

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